Sexism in games.

[retrolinkx]

It's not a problem in the industry, feminists think that any thing women are portrayed in a negative way is bad, and then proceed to run amuck to prove this.

I understand some games try to use Women as an advantage to make people buy the game, like Bayonetta and Lollipop Chainsaw, but in those games Women are shown to be incredibly powerful and not at all vulnerable, as many women say.

But most of the time, they just complain TO complain. I remember a picture a while ago of Harley Quinn tied up in Arkham City, nothing else, just her tied up, and the player, if they wanted to could put sticky tape on her mouth to shut her up, nothing else, a lot of feminists went mad.

The ironic thing was, she wasn't hurt, nothing happened to her, just being tied up. They thought that Batman being able to shut her up and make her talk was something incredibly bad.

Meanwhile Batman has gone through shit with countless enemies, is near death, is dying and is under stress, in pain and much more, but I don't see us guys complaining.

I'm not saying all feminists are bad, but they shouldn't interfere with stuff that isn't real life, it doesn't change anything, the only understandable thing I can think of is Lara Croft is able to be raped in the new game, and that's about it.

[Beardy]

(07-10-2012 11:29 AM)BumblebeeCody Wrote:  

(07-10-2012 11:27 AM)Beardy Wrote:  "WHY would females be willing to dress in such attire if they find it sexist?"

Is that an actual point? Like, a serious argument? Man.

Yes. It's clearly not sexist if they are willing to partake in it...

Just raising this point again... it's not like the booth babes are just random women who turn up. They're employed to be there, wearing what they wear.

[Dark_Dimension]

(07-10-2012 03:22 PM)retrolinkx Wrote:  It's not a problem in the industry, feminists think that any thing women are portrayed in a negative way is bad, and then proceed to run amuck to prove this.

I understand some games try to use Women as an advantage to make people buy the game, like Bayonetta and Lollipop Chainsaw, but in those games Women are shown to be incredibly powerful and not at all vulnerable, as many women say.

But most of the time, they just complain TO complain. I remember a picture a while ago of Harley Quinn tied up in Arkham City, nothing else, just her tied up, and the player, if they wanted to could put sticky tape on her mouth to shut her up, nothing else, a lot of feminists went mad.

The ironic thing was, she wasn't hurt, nothing happened to her, just being tied up. They thought that Batman being able to shut her up and make her talk was something incredibly bad.

Meanwhile Batman has gone through shit with countless enemies, is near death, is dying and is under stress, in pain and much more, but I don't see us guys complaining.

I'm not saying all feminists are bad, but they shouldn't interfere with stuff that isn't real life, it doesn't change anything, the only understandable thing I can think of is Lara Croft is able to be raped in the new game, and that's about it.

The feminists you describe are the extremist ones. Actual feminists wouldn't be put off by that at all.

Also, there was a very good article written about Lollipop Chainsaw being a game about male objectification. I would highly suggest reading it; I thoroughly enjoyed it.

From now on, can we please appropriately call extremists as such? Society has painted feminists as cat-lady-deprived-of-sex-and-any-soul type of people. There are many females and males out there that believe women should be treated by the merits of their personality (the same going for males). If treating females as regular people (which they are) counts as feminist, then count me in that group.

Anyway, this is a little off-topic.

So, about sexism in games. What have video games traditionally been? Male power fantasies. I'm not saying all games are like that nor am I saying that video games should be developed as such. However, I've been guilty of wanting to run around as a scantily clad female and slaying everything in my path. You know the forsworn armor in Skyrim? Yeah, my dark elf ran around in that for a while. Eventually went to Daedric because it's badass but the point remains.

Looking at a person who is extremely attractive that you can also control is something a lot of people can get behind (woo word choices).

Also, thank you all again for keeping a touchy debate like this civil and devoid of flaming. You're all wonderful. ^_^-b

[Beardy]

(07-10-2012 03:22 PM)retrolinkx Wrote:  I understand some games try to use Women as an advantage to make people buy the game, like Bayonetta and Lollipop Chainsaw, but in those games Women are shown to be incredibly powerful and not at all vulnerable, as many women say.

I don't think it's about how powerful these women characters are, it's the intent behind it, which is basically to titillate adolescent males. Look at how it's marketed: Bayonetta - SHE HAS AN ARSE, LOOK AT HER ARSE; Tomb Raider - SHE HAS TITS, LOOK AT HER TITS... Lollipop Chainsaw - well everything really, but admittedly it's all very tongue-in-cheek and kind of pokes fun at the whole thing.

[BumblebeeCody]

(07-10-2012 08:28 PM)Beardy Wrote:  

(07-10-2012 11:29 AM)BumblebeeCody Wrote:  

(07-10-2012 11:27 AM)Beardy Wrote:  "WHY would females be willing to dress in such attire if they find it sexist?"

Is that an actual point? Like, a serious argument? Man.

Yes. It's clearly not sexist if they are willing to partake in it...

Just raising this point again... it's not like the booth babes are just random women who turn up. They're employed to be there, wearing what they wear.

Exactly, so it's not sexist then.


@Dark_Dimension
Suda51 is one of the few companies that jam females everywhere in their game but not for the sex factor.

(07-10-2012 10:24 PM)Beardy Wrote:  

(07-10-2012 03:22 PM)retrolinkx Wrote:  I understand some games try to use Women as an advantage to make people buy the game, like Bayonetta and Lollipop Chainsaw, but in those games Women are shown to be incredibly powerful and not at all vulnerable, as many women say.

I don't think it's about how powerful these women characters are, it's the intent behind it, which is basically to titillate adolescent males. Look at how it's marketed: Bayonetta - SHE HAS AN ARSE, LOOK AT HER ARSE; Tomb Raider - SHE HAS TITS, LOOK AT HER TITS... Lollipop Chainsaw - well everything really, but admittedly it's all very tongue-in-cheek and kind of pokes fun at the whole thing.

Yeah but Tomb Raider having large mammaries isn't what she's about. You could easily find any respectable female like Samus, Jill and Trip and look at their boobs and butt all day despite not being sexy like Bayonetta.

Like I said in my initial post, I there is confusion of Sexism and Misrepresentation of women.

[Beardy]

(07-10-2012 10:52 PM)BumblebeeCody Wrote:  

(07-10-2012 08:28 PM)Beardy Wrote:  

(07-10-2012 11:29 AM)BumblebeeCody Wrote:  

(07-10-2012 11:27 AM)Beardy Wrote:  "WHY would females be willing to dress in such attire if they find it sexist?"

Is that an actual point? Like, a serious argument? Man.

Yes. It's clearly not sexist if they are willing to partake in it...

Just raising this point again... it's not like the booth babes are just random women who turn up. They're employed to be there, wearing what they wear.

Exactly, so it's not sexist then.

That doesn't follow at all. Would a company that insists that all women in the office wear short skirts and skimpy tops be "not sexist"? I'm sure these women are happy enough to be there, but again, it's the intent behind the whole scene, which is to cater for horndog males.

As for Lara Croft.... pretty sure her boobs were a major marketing point. In fact didn't they screw up the initial coding and make them too big, then decided to keep them that way because sex sells? Not sure if that's true or just something I heard in a pub sometime. Still, the point is that the overwhelming thrust of the appeal was that she was a very sexualised character.

Samus is a weird one. I mean in the NES days it was a major twist that she even WAS a woman, which is telling in itself. But didn't Metroid: Other M basically paint her as a bit...weak? I've never played it myself, so that's based purely on criticisms I've read, I could be way off.

EDIT - by the way, what is the big difference between sexism and misrepresentation of women in games? I'm not sure I get your point there.

[Xannidel]

To me because video games are fantasy settings where the creators are "God" so to speak, they have free reign on what they want and they seem to like to portray women AND men in these ways to attract attention be it positive or negative attention from people/news/reviewers/ect. All the men have muscles (some more and some less) and the women either have busts the size of cantelopes or busts the size of...well a magnifying glass would help. This is the same in fashion magazines where they photoshop their pictures to produce a model that women want to be like and men want to be with her. There is really only one game that I own right now that I am somewhat ashamed to have and that is Bayonetta, NOT because it is a fun game, but just how they portray her in bondage and what not. Tomb Raider and Jill from Resident Evil 3 are some of the earlier girls in games that really started doing that right?

[Beware of Cuccos]

As a female, I do not feel as though video games are sexist. It's funny, really. The majority of the people who pull the sexist card are the type of people who spend their time looking for things to get mad at. The companies promote to a certain group (teenage/early 20s males), and the result is ass and titties. That's just how it is. Personally, I don't even pay attention to how "hot" my characters are. I'm more concerned with "Have I gotten all the weapons? How many dungeons do I have left?" etc.

But honestly, think about this- Take a game with a strong female lead, who also happens to be sexualized. Tall, skinny, big boobs and ass, middrift showing. Now take that exact same game and replace that sexuality with a 5'4", average sized, short haired girl in Vans, blue jeans and a concert tshirt. Congratulations, you just played me as a character. But which one do you think most people will buy? Option one, of course. But that doesn't bother me at all. Just something to think about.

[BumblebeeCody]

(07-12-2012 12:28 AM)Beware of Cuccos Wrote:  As a female, I do not feel as though video games are sexist. It's funny, really. The majority of the people who pull the sexist card are the type of people who spend their time looking for things to get mad at. The companies promote to a certain group (teenage/early 20s males), and the result is ass and titties. That's just how it is. Personally, I don't even pay attention to how "hot" my characters are. I'm more concerned with "Have I gotten all the weapons? How many dungeons do I have left?" etc.

But honestly, think about this- (1 Take a game with a strong female lead, who also happens to be sexualized. Tall, skinny, big boobs and ass, middrift showing. Now take that exact same game and replace that sexuality with a 5'4", average sized, short haired girl in Vans, blue jeans and a concert tshirt. Congratulations, you just played me as a character. But which one do you think most people will buy? Option one, of course. But that doesn't bother me at all. Just something to think about.

I've yet to find a case in which people buy a game for the fact that "there is a hot girl in it". It's more of the case, "this game features hot girls". How many men play Tomb Raider because it's actually good over How many men play Tomb Raider because she's hot?
Like with Lollipop Chainsaw, I've yet to find someone who bought the game to fap to it but would rather want to play as a cheerleader who's slicing up zombies with a crap ton of toilet humour and interesting characters.
Having a hot female lead is never a deciding factor whether to buy a game or not. So in your case, Big Boobs vs Girl in vans wouldn't be a point about whether the game was good or not/worth buying.

[Beware of Cuccos]

(07-12-2012 12:45 AM)BumblebeeCody Wrote:  

(07-12-2012 12:28 AM)Beware of Cuccos Wrote:  As a female, I do not feel as though video games are sexist. It's funny, really. The majority of the people who pull the sexist card are the type of people who spend their time looking for things to get mad at. The companies promote to a certain group (teenage/early 20s males), and the result is ass and titties. That's just how it is. Personally, I don't even pay attention to how "hot" my characters are. I'm more concerned with "Have I gotten all the weapons? How many dungeons do I have left?" etc.

But honestly, think about this- (1 Take a game with a strong female lead, who also happens to be sexualized. Tall, skinny, big boobs and ass, middrift showing. Now take that exact same game and replace that sexuality with a 5'4", average sized, short haired girl in Vans, blue jeans and a concert tshirt. Congratulations, you just played me as a character. But which one do you think most people will buy? Option one, of course. But that doesn't bother me at all. Just something to think about.

I've yet to find a case in which people buy a game for the fact that "there is a hot girl in it". It's more of the case, "this game features hot girls". How many men play Tomb Raider because it's actually good over How many men play Tomb Raider because she's hot?
Like with Lollipop Chainsaw, I've yet to find someone who bought the game to fap to it but would rather want to play as a cheerleader who's slicing up zombies with a crap ton of toilet humour and interesting characters.
Having a hot female lead is never a deciding factor whether to buy a game or not. So in your case, Big Boobs vs Girl in vans wouldn't be a point about whether the game was good or not/worth buying.

Valid point, and well stated as well.

[DidYouKnowGaming]

(07-12-2012 12:28 AM)Beware of Cuccos Wrote:  As a female, I do not feel as though video games are sexist. It's funny, really. The majority of the people who pull the sexist card are the type of people who spend their time looking for things to get mad at. The companies promote to a certain group (teenage/early 20s males), and the result is ass and titties. That's just how it is. Personally, I don't even pay attention to how "hot" my characters are. I'm more concerned with "Have I gotten all the weapons? How many dungeons do I have left?" etc.

But honestly, think about this- Take a game with a strong female lead, who also happens to be sexualized. Tall, skinny, big boobs and ass, middrift showing. Now take that exact same game and replace that sexuality with a 5'4", average sized, short haired girl in Vans, blue jeans and a concert tshirt. Congratulations, you just played me as a character. But which one do you think most people will buy? Option one, of course. But that doesn't bother me at all. Just something to think about.

Just like to point out that the tall women being attractive thing is a bit of a myth started by the fashion industry. Men want to dominate, not be with a girl who's as big as/taller than them.

[BumblebeeCody]

(07-12-2012 02:40 AM)DidYouKnowGaming Wrote:  

(07-12-2012 12:28 AM)Beware of Cuccos Wrote:  As a female, I do not feel as though video games are sexist. It's funny, really. The majority of the people who pull the sexist card are the type of people who spend their time looking for things to get mad at. The companies promote to a certain group (teenage/early 20s males), and the result is ass and titties. That's just how it is. Personally, I don't even pay attention to how "hot" my characters are. I'm more concerned with "Have I gotten all the weapons? How many dungeons do I have left?" etc.

But honestly, think about this- Take a game with a strong female lead, who also happens to be sexualized. Tall, skinny, big boobs and ass, middrift showing. Now take that exact same game and replace that sexuality with a 5'4", average sized, short haired girl in Vans, blue jeans and a concert tshirt. Congratulations, you just played me as a character. But which one do you think most people will buy? Option one, of course. But that doesn't bother me at all. Just something to think about.

Just like to point out that the tall women being attractive thing is a bit of a myth started by the fashion industry. Men want to dominate, not be with a girl who's as big as/taller than them.

Which is quite sad really. I've heard this said before by many other men. A woman being tall says nothing about the person she really is. I've said they need to overlook this factor because she is probably one the nicest people you could ever meet. It wouldn't surprise me if she has been rejected before just because she is tall instead of getting to know her......

[Beardy]

(07-12-2012 12:45 AM)BumblebeeCody Wrote:  I've yet to find a case in which people buy a game for the fact that "there is a hot girl in it". It's more of the case, "this game features hot girls". How many men play Tomb Raider because it's actually good over How many men play Tomb Raider because she's hot?
Like with Lollipop Chainsaw, I've yet to find someone who bought the game to fap to it but would rather want to play as a cheerleader who's slicing up zombies with a crap ton of toilet humour and interesting characters.
Having a hot female lead is never a deciding factor whether to buy a game or not. So in your case, Big Boobs vs Girl in vans wouldn't be a point about whether the game was good or not/worth buying.

That's all beside the point, surely? The issue here is whether games are sexist or not, not whether the sexism is the driving factor in the marketing of it or how fun they are.

From what you say I would take it that yes, they are sexist, but you're not overly fussed about it. I don't mean that as a criticism, because it's pretty much my own view on it. It doesn't impact me personally so it's no biggie, but as a point of discussion (which is all this is), I would definitely say that the sexualisation of the women is WAY more overt than that of men. Don't get that many games where the dudes are required to wear skimpy, revealing outfits as a matter of course. It's about objectification rather than actually knocking one off the wrist to a game.

[BumblebeeCody]

(07-12-2012 02:55 AM)Beardy Wrote:  

(07-12-2012 12:45 AM)BumblebeeCody Wrote:  I've yet to find a case in which people buy a game for the fact that "there is a hot girl in it". It's more of the case, "this game features hot girls". How many men play Tomb Raider because it's actually good over How many men play Tomb Raider because she's hot?
Like with Lollipop Chainsaw, I've yet to find someone who bought the game to fap to it but would rather want to play as a cheerleader who's slicing up zombies with a crap ton of toilet humour and interesting characters.
Having a hot female lead is never a deciding factor whether to buy a game or not. So in your case, Big Boobs vs Girl in vans wouldn't be a point about whether the game was good or not/worth buying.

That's all beside the point, surely? The issue here is whether games are sexist or not, not whether the sexism is the driving factor in the marketing of it or how fun they are.

From what you say I would take it that yes, they are sexist, but you're not overly fussed about it. I don't mean that as a criticism, because it's pretty much my own view on it. It doesn't impact me personally so it's no biggie, but as a point of discussion (which is all this is), I would definitely say that the sexualisation of the women is WAY more overt than that of men. Don't get that many games where the dudes are required to wear skimpy, revealing outfits as a matter of course. It's about objectification rather than actually knocking one off the wrist to a game.

Nah dude you're right. There are some females that have horrid clothing designs. Really the only offenders I can think of are:
[spoiler]
Ivy - Soul Calibur

Ayumi - X-blades
[/spoiler]

But I actually love Soul Calibur and X-blades was OK(forgettable). It's been pointed out that even dudes hate X-blades character design. Hilariously bad. I get that. But when I see people making points about Juliet Starling, that's the whole point of being a cheerleader.
I can name plenty of dudes in skimpy outfits.
Gill and Urien from SF3: Third Strike wear nothing but cloth around their crotch. Seth from SF4 is completely naked.
Same with the alternate costumes show the dudes wearing less and less clothes

^^^^^
DAT BULGE AND MUSCLE FORM D:

Not to mention the posts of girls admitting to stripping down dudes in RPGs.

Like the points about Bayonetta also, if you're into kinky leather then fine but it's actually her hair D: Bayonettas face though.....damn

[Beardy]

Well to be fair, the dudes are in sporting gear, rather than arbitrarily tight/revealing clothing. And how many lingering bum-shots d'you get of them?

Lollipop Chainsaw, as I saw it, dodges the issue by taking the whole thing to an extreme in order to poke fun at the perviness or sexism or whatever prevalent in games these days.

Basically it seems to me that it's all marketed towards a certain demographic. That's not to say that people outside of that demographic can't enjoy it. The targeting of, I dunno, 14-30yr old males results in a skewed perception of women is all. They're very much seen as "the other" rather than someone to identify with. And yeah, a lot of the time are treated as objects of desire rather than actual people.

HAVING SAID ALL THAT.... I'm not saying games aren't fun or that 100% of them are morally reprehensible or anything like that.