Sexism in games.

[Beardy]

How prevalent do you all think this is? Do you think it's a problem for the industry? Do you think it needs to be seriously looked at?

Personally I don't have any rock solid views on this, so I'd welcome any thoughts. I definitely think it's worth thinking about, though.

[CFMM]

The fact that we have "booth babes" is reason enough that there's a certain kind of sexism and "sex sells" mentality with gamers. There's a certain stereotype that they're nerdy Spike-TV watching (who ironically hosts the annual video game "awards") sex-starved foreveralones who just want to oogle at boobies, take some hoverhand photos with the models, and then be entertained with dubstep trailers for new games. Whenever massive consumer-oriented and advertiser-driven outlets cover the dog & pony show that is E3 there is consistently a chapter or segment for "Booth Babes". As bad as it sounds I KNOW people who just drool over Ivy (Soul Calibur) and Cammy (Street Fighter) just because they have skimpy costumes that show off their T&A. That is a marketable demographic, and it happens to be the largest. Unfortunately, that is "the norm".

But you don't really see too much of the opposite. Where's all the chiseled hunky guys? Straight girls play games, and gay guys play games too. You can sit us in front of a wall of tits and you'll get yawns and discussions making fun of boob physics, that's about it.

It's really the consumer/retail market that's bad. Independent studios tend not to put too much emphasis on having sexy women and other cliche cookie cutter inclusions in their games. The kinds of games I check out, I don't generally see too much of it.

[Duago]

(07-10-2012 09:52 AM)CFMM Wrote:  The fact that we have "booth babes" is reason enough that there's a certain kind of sexism and "sex sells" mentality with gamers. There's a certain stereotype that they're nerdy Spike-TV watching (who ironically hosts the annual video game "awards") sex-starved foreveralones who just want to oogle at boobies, take some hoverhand photos with the models, and then be entertained with dubstep trailers for new games. Whenever massive consumer-oriented and advertiser-driven outlets cover the dog & pony show that is E3 there is consistently a chapter or segment for "Booth Babes". As bad as it sounds I KNOW people who just drool over Ivy (Soul Calibur) and Cammy (Street Fighter) just because they have skimpy costumes that show off their T&A. That is a marketable demographic, and it happens to be the largest. Unfortunately, that is "the norm".

But you don't really see too much of the opposite. Where's all the chiseled hunky guys? Straight girls play games, and gay guys play games too. You can sit us in front of a wall of tits and you'll get yawns and discussions making fun of boob physics, that's about it.

It's really the consumer/retail market that's bad. Independent studios tend not to put too much emphasis on having sexy women and other cliche cookie cutter inclusions in their games. The kinds of games I check out, I don't generally see too much of it.

This. It's even worse when they "sex up" existing characters over time or with alternate costumes. As if games weren't treated lowbrow enough.

[Beardy]

Personally, I think there are plenty of impossible male role models in games. Y'know, tough, hardened warriors and that. I think it's telling that they're all wish-fulfillment kind of characters though, if we're honest, firmly aimed at straight dudes.

Are there any women out there who wish they were Ashley from RE4?

Are there any gay dudes out there who wish.... well, there wasn't such a fucking palava over the Mass Effect romance scenes? (as much as I liked Mass Effect... is that really the point? Who you fuck via clumsy dialogue?)

I dunno, I think it's telling that there was such a massive thing made about the women vs tropes thing.

I'm a middle-class, white, straight dude and I'm worried about this stuff.

[CFMM]

I'm into dudes but I have never played a Mass Effect game. I fell behind getting started on ME1, and by the time the hype machine was running at full steam I just started rolling my eyes and ignoring it.

As far as the "warrior" guys you mentioned, yes, that is their purpose. They are wish fulfillment characters and are men in positions designed to appeal to other men, they are not eye candy or fantasy fodder meant to be consumed by other demographics.

edit: That woman who started that Kickstarter project basically stirred up a hornet's nest of trouble and rode it out to a sizeable Kickstarter donation, so I'm not exactly too fond of her. There was a really good "other side rebuttal/explanation" that I read a while ago.

[Skarro]

(07-10-2012 09:52 AM)CFMM Wrote:  Where's all the chiseled hunky guys?

Well I agree there not nearly as sexed up as women.. but they aren't exactly ugly. I think any main male character is usually chiseled and handsome.

edit: this was addressed and replied to already...gosh im slow at posting.

Anyway I don't think sexism is serious in games, CFMM is fair to rant about how developers are using it so sell the game itself, but I think it's silly to call out sexism and give violence a free pass. Alot of people were probably pushed towards purchasing manhunt for violence as others were pushed towards buying DOA for BEWBS.

I for one think it isn't an issue. It usually suits the games universe and the ratio of over sexualised girls to the norm seems to coincide with real life haha.

[Duago]

(07-10-2012 10:15 AM)Beardy Wrote:  Personally, I think there are plenty of impossible male role models in games. Y'know, tough, hardened warriors and that. I think it's telling that they're all wish-fulfillment kind of characters though, if we're honest, firmly aimed at straight dudes.

Are there any women out there who wish they were Ashley from RE4?

Are there any gay dudes out there who wish.... well, there wasn't such a fucking palava over the Mass Effect romance scenes? (as much as I liked Mass Effect... is that really the point? Who you fuck via clumsy dialogue?)

I dunno, I think it's telling that there was such a massive thing made about the women vs tropes thing.

I'm a middle-class, white, straight dude and I'm worried about this stuff.

With you there. If games dont one day offer the same character approachability for other genders, races, orientations and creeds, it will be quite sad. How can a medium that has the most direct contact with it's audience (through interactivity) be so behind in understanding there are a wide variety of different audience types.

[Beardy]

(07-10-2012 10:20 AM)CFMM Wrote:  edit: That woman who started that Kickstarter project basically stirred up a hornet's nest of trouble and rode it out to a sizeable Kickstarter donation, so I'm not exactly too fond of her. There was a really good "other side rebuttal/explanation" that I read a while ago.

To be fair to her, she'd always been doing a feminist view of stuff hadn't she? I'm sure there's a really good argument against what she believes, intellectually. Say what you want about what she believes, that doesn't discount the fact that a massive chunk of wanker trolls kicked off and yeah, got her some publicity and money in the form of decent human beings who DON'T don't want to rape and kill her.

[CFMM]

(07-10-2012 10:29 AM)Beardy Wrote:  

(07-10-2012 10:20 AM)CFMM Wrote:  edit: That woman who started that Kickstarter project basically stirred up a hornet's nest of trouble and rode it out to a sizeable Kickstarter donation, so I'm not exactly too fond of her. There was a really good "other side rebuttal/explanation" that I read a while ago.

To be fair to her, she'd always been doing a feminist view of stuff hadn't she? I'm sure there's a really good argument against what she believes, intellectually. Say what you want about what she believes, that doesn't discount the fact that a massive chunk of wanker trolls kicked off and yeah, got her some publicity and money in the form of decent human beings who DON'T don't want to rape and kill her.

I can't remember the last time a bunch of 14 year old /b/tards ever showed up at someone's house to rape and/or murder them. Yeah, threats like that are serious, but coming from 4chan they shouldn't really be taken seriously. They troll everybody like that, and what ended up happening is their trolling backfired on them because a bunch of dickless male apologizers came in and dumped money on her.

[Beardy]

(07-10-2012 10:36 AM)CFMM Wrote:  

(07-10-2012 10:29 AM)Beardy Wrote:  

(07-10-2012 10:20 AM)CFMM Wrote:  edit: That woman who started that Kickstarter project basically stirred up a hornet's nest of trouble and rode it out to a sizeable Kickstarter donation, so I'm not exactly too fond of her. There was a really good "other side rebuttal/explanation" that I read a while ago.

To be fair to her, she'd always been doing a feminist view of stuff hadn't she? I'm sure there's a really good argument against what she believes, intellectually. Say what you want about what she believes, that doesn't discount the fact that a massive chunk of wanker trolls kicked off and yeah, got her some publicity and money in the form of decent human beings who DON'T don't want to rape and kill her.

I can't remember the last time a bunch of 14 year old /b/tards ever showed up at someone's house to rape and/or murder them. Yeah, threats like that are serious, but coming from 4chan they shouldn't really be taken seriously. They troll everybody like that, and what ended up happening is their trolling backfired on them because a bunch of dickless male apologizers came in and dumped money on her.

So... you think she DIDN'T have a point at all? Basically she was after making a video of... well... the entire point of the OP of this thread. Personally, I'm pretty glad she got more money because of stupid wankers giving her publicity.

[Skarro]

Someone drop the link. Never seen this.

[Beardy]

(07-10-2012 10:44 AM)Skarro Wrote:  Someone drop the link. Never seen this.

This

[CFMM]

(07-10-2012 10:41 AM)Beardy Wrote:  So... you think she DIDN'T have a point at all? Basically she was after making a video of... well... the entire point of the OP of this thread. Personally, I'm pretty glad she got more money because of stupid wankers giving her publicity.

She has a point, but went about handling things in a manner I didn't really agree with. It's just unfortunate the way it unfolded.

[Beardy]

(07-10-2012 10:57 AM)CFMM Wrote:  

(07-10-2012 10:41 AM)Beardy Wrote:  So... you think she DIDN'T have a point at all? Basically she was after making a video of... well... the entire point of the OP of this thread. Personally, I'm pretty glad she got more money because of stupid wankers giving her publicity.

She has a point, but went about handling things in a manner I didn't really agree with. It's just unfortunate the way it unfolded.

How should she have gone about it, then?

[CFMM]

I really would prefer to not get involved discussing the matter.